Vaccinations

Firstly, thank you so much for your valuable time in sharing your knowledge and experience with us all! I have a couple of questions.
#1... Our Chi mix girl has had allergic reactions to the rabies vaccine (thimerosal free) previously and is generally reactive and sensitive (vaccines, environmental, bug bites, etc.)  If a vet gives a large, injected dose of Benedryl 30 minutes prior to giving a rabies vaccine, is it possible an allergic reaction to the vaccine be delayed a week? (My Kenzie girl is pictured below in April having a reaction - red and purple splotches, hives and extreme itching)
Our vet said since a week had passed it was not a reaction to the vaccine.
#2... Our vet gave us "Liver Happy" to give our girl due to slightly elevated liver numbers... reason unknown. I started that supplement the day before the picture was taken. So, have you ever known of a dog having this kind of allergic reaction to an Eastern supplement called "Liver Happy"?  
--- If so, would Milk Thistle (Herbsmith brand) work to effectively support her liver instead?

Thanks again in advance!

Dr. Steve's Advice -  a reaction like that is not seen typically in response to Chinese herbs, but you'd want to contact Jing Tang and ask them as well, to make sure it's not something they normally see.

I would say a vaccine reaction is more likely. They commonly happen even two or three weeks after vaccination. Your vet is thinking of anaphylaxis when she says the rabies vaccine couldn't be a cause after a week. The adjuvants in vaccines have enduring effects on the immune system, though, that last much longer than a week. In fact, the immune system is often suppressed by vaccines at first, and it takes a week for that to wear off. What you're seeing in the photo is possibly her coming out of that immune suppressed state and into an excessive immune stimulation state. The vaccine didn't cause that per se. It just aggravated a latent tendency to excess immune stimulation that was already present but not clinically evident.

If all that is correct, a dose of Benadryl is unlikely to make a difference. I'd wonder instead about trying Cessorex (https://goldstandardherbs.com/products/Original-Cessorex-85g-p647327434) from Gold Standard Herbs, particularly if your dog is on a healthy real food diet. It may help those liver enzymes out, too

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  Hello Dr. Steve , I am so confused about vaccinations. I want to minimize my dog vaccinations but when vet told to me my dog need to update his core vaccination . I worry about the side affect but also worry about like Parvo. He goes a park but not play with other dogs . Could you please advise ? I cannot make up my mind what is best for my dog . Thank you so much ! 

Dr. Steve's Advice -  pretty much all vets have access to titer testing these days for distemper and parvo. If the titer test shows even a 'weak positive' antibody titer (in other words, anything above 'not detected'), then your dog doesn't need vaccinating against those viruses, per the most current research on the topic. I'd request those titers be done.

If you absolutely have to get your dog vaccinated for parvo and distemper, and it's been several years since the last shot, then you're not likely going to see problems. Consider using homeopathic Thuja 30C three times daily the day before, the day of, and the day after vaccination to prevent adverse reactions. Vaccines like Lepto are more likely to cause an adverse reaction than parvo. If Lepto (or any of the other viruses) are not that common in your area, then you can forego them. Lepto is more of an 'add on' and not considered a 'core' vaccine.

Hopefully this helps you out!

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Dr Steve Marsden would you still agree with the vaccination protocol that you have in files by Ron Schultz? My son is getting a golden retriever puppy in 2 weeks and we want to make sure we do the very best after losing our Harper boy at 8 yrs old due to nerve root tumor. He will be feeding raw and limited vaccines.  The puppy has had her Parvo vaccine at 6 weeks and I wanted to see if I should have breeder give 1st vaccines prior to us picking her up.  With or last dog who is 3 now we waited longer to start series and only did 2 rounds.  Have not repeated rabies either. 

Thank you for your help. I tried to read files and didn’t find anything else for guidance.

Dr. Steve's Advice -  that is one lucky puppy to wind up in your household!

As for vaccination, I stand by what Ron Schultz published, because it is based on challenge studies and because he is against excessive vaccination.

When someone starts vaccinating at such a young age (6 wks), you're stuck with having to see it through. Early shots often don't really boost the immune system, but just bind up antibodies provided by the mother, ironically potentially raising risk of infection if you don't provide the next booster within a month.

Since the 10 week shot is the first real stimulation of the immune system, the 14 week booster is likely going to be needed to seal the deal, since it's effectively the second booster given for a dog whose shots are started so early. It's only at the 14 week mark that any antibodies found in the bloodstream were for sure made by the dog and not its mother.

Don't get too annoyed at the breeder for the early vaccination. It's common practice and was probably advised by his/her vet. Regarding Harper, I don't think the altered vaccine schedule was too instrumental in the development of his nerve sheath tumor.

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I have a three year old Maltese. I got her when she was 8 weeks old. No tear stains. Healthy little girl. She received her puppy vaccinations and then her one year vaccinations. She had a reaction to the rabies vaccine and a two inch circular area on her right thigh where she was injected, all her hair fell out. I took her to my Vet (that isn’t holistic) She did a scraping which came back negative. She’s still has a bald spot. It has never grown back. My Vet said the vaccines did not cause her hair to fall out. I did research on the internet and that’s exactly what happened. I bought a detox formula that gave to her but she still is bald. Do you have any recommendations as to what I can do to get her hair to grow back? 

Dr. Steve's Advice -  one thing I've found that works for this at least some of the time is Cool the Blood from Kan Essentials. You can source that through group member Aleksandra Topic using the instructions she provides here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1158575954706282/posts/1420037418560133/

A real food diet may help resolve it as well

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 Hello Dr. Steve, thank you for all you do! I am struggling quite a bit with understanding the vaccine titer test results for my dog. I work for a vet but he does not do them, I found info from following yourself and others , about titer test and took the extra effort to have this done on my 10 yr old dog. These are the results, I called KSVDL and asked to speak with the doc, he told me that his levels were good and he doesn’t see a need to vaccinate, although myself and the doctors I work for were reading that the CPV is low at 1:640, being that it states that anything less than 1:8 needs a booster. Dr. Pogramichniy (KAVDL) was very friendly on the phone but unfortunately, he did not speak good English and I couldn’t understand him to be able to explain to my vets, I have searched and searched to find answers and am now wondering if I DID possibly mis-understand him I was hoping you could explain or even point me in the direction of an explanation for these numbers. Thank you! 

Dr. Steve's Advice -  I agree with the lab. None of those titers are too low so I don't see your dog needing those vaccines. The lowest titer is CDV at 1:32, meaning that you have to dilute a drop of serum to 1/32 of its original concentration before you lose antibodies.

Still, that's not too bad, and a positive is a positive. Per Ron Schultz, once a dog has even a weak positive titer against any of those three viruses, the dog is immune for life, so you don't really need to titer or vaccinate your dog again for those ailments.

The CPV result means you only lose any trace of antibodies once the serum is diluted to 1/640th of its original strength. As for CAV, they stopped measuring at a 1/256th dilution, as that is ample protection

Hope that helps

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 Hello Dr Steve, I'm getting a Dachshund 8 wk old puppy in a few days and she's had one vaccine. The breeder used the 5 in 1 puppy Vax from tractor supply stores. My question is how many and which vaccines does she still need and how do I detox her body from these. She also got the wormer. Do I need to do another or can I treat with raw ground pumpkin seeds? Lastly what food do you suggest for a puppy I'm in the States(Oregon). Thank you. 

Dr. Steve's Advice -  regarding vaccinations, I follow the advice of Dr. Ron Schultz, North America's foremost vaccine researcher, so that I give enough vaccines, but no more than necessary. You can find a copy of those recommendations in the Files of this group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1158575954706282/permalink/1448009139096294 Per that article, your pup would probably need two more boosters. I don't find any detox is routinely necessary and would base whether to use things like homeopathic Thuja on the response you see to the next vaccine. If your pup does not appear out of sorts, then they will likely handle the final booster well.

Regarding deworming, ask if they are giving it because roundworms were present in the mother or pup. If they never found any ever in the mother and pup, or they never test, then I think it's okay to deworm in the future only on the basis of the results of a fecal analysis that you get done on your pup's stool. If, on the other hand, they did see worms in either the dam or the pup's stool, then use the dewormer they gave you. I've never used pumpkin seeds to deworm dogs, but would not guess it is as effective as the drug. If the tests were all negative or there isn't any reason to believe your pup could be infected, then it's okay to use your pumpkin seed approach instead of the drug, I would think.

Regarding diets, I don't have a specific brand to push you towards. I encourage you to discuss with local stores or to purchase the list of foods that officially pass muster (https://www.truthaboutpetfoodstore.com/2023-list/). If you use a raw diet, ensure 15 to 30% of it is plant-based. I don't personally feed puppies differently from adults when feeding real foods

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Hi Dr. Marsden, I contacted you 2 months ago about my Rottweiler puppy who developed an obsession with lights and shadows after his rabies vaccine; we decided he had rabies miasm. I gave him some Thuja at your suggestion and it helped tremendously but the shadow behavior started again two days ago to the point that he has been staring at the floor on and off chasing shadows since about 7pm. I gave him a dose of Thuja about an hour ago but he’s still staring at the floor. This is a picture I just took of my sweet Samson. I am really worried about him, he can be distracted and will walk away for a few minutes but as soon as he quits playing he goes right back to that spot and stares at the floor. What else can I do fjr him? 

Dr. Steve's Advice - Definitely give another full course of Thuja, Tisha Ann, if it worked before.

He may be keying in on something you can't appreciate, like some sound coming through the floor boards. Try putting a piece of furniture over that spot for a few days to see if you can break the cycle.

There are many herbs to try, but I'd try the above first

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Hi

I posted a while back about Burlap, thank you so much for your direction and advise, he has been with us 3 months now and is 90 percent better.  

I would like to ask your opinion on vaccinations at this time.   Burlap did not received his puppy vaccines in the recommended timeline.  He had one puppy shot at 8 weeks by breeder, then his  first home did second vaccine shot at approximately two months, and then Burlap's  second home did not provide any shots/vaccines.  Fast forward to us, we provide him with DA2PP, Bordetella and rabies at 11 months old.  It was recommended to repeat the puppy shots.  I am not against vaccinations but I would rather titer test before giving him any more vaccinations.  

I don't think this unreasonable?  If you are comfortable, can you please advise what would I ask to be tested on the Titer, DA2PP, Bordetella and rabies to see if the values make it necessary to repeat the vaccinations?  Is there more I should be asking for?  

Our doc of 20 years, who looked after 2 generations of my pets has retired and I haven't built the same relationship with the new doc, he is great too.  I just really would like a second opinion if possible.  

Thank you, Laura & Burlap

Dr. Steve's Advice - I'm so glad Burlap has settled in.

Regarding vaccinations, I can't see the value in repeating the puppy sequence. All the puppy sequence is designed to do is try to provoke the puppy immune system despite interference from maternal antibody. that interference means you have to give frequent shots until 14 weeks, after which maternal antibodies are gone, and your dog finally gets the full brunt of the vaccine. Your dog appears to have had several shots after 14 weeks of age. There's no scientific basis for asking you to repeat the sequence.

The only titers considered important to check are distemper, rabies, and parvo. Parainfluenza is not an issue in normal older dog and neither is infectious canine hepatitis.

We've discussed titer testing before and you can read about how to interpret them here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1158575954706282/posts/1399018263995382/. In a nutshell, once antibodies against distemper and parvo are detected in a dog older then 14 weeks, they are considered immune and do not require further vaccination, per the vaccine challenge studies performed at the University of Wisconsin.

Antibodies from rabies vaccines eventually dip below the threshold considered protective for animals moving internationally, which is our metric for whether a dog is at risk if they are bitten by a rabid animal. Often this drop doesn't happen until five to seven years after the second rabies booster.

Immunity from Bordetella vaccines often wears off in a few months. Since vets are only asking the dogs receive the shots annually, they are essentially admitting as a profession that it is fine for dogs to go for months without Bordetella protection, raising the question of why we bother giving the vaccine in the first place. Efficacy of Bordetella vaccines is not nearly as compelling as it is for parvo. Kennel cough is easy and quick to resolve with holistic therapies, so my personal bias is to forego the vaccine and just treat the infection as needed. The exception would be if your dog is involved in activities for which the proprietor insists that all dogs have a Bordetella vaccination. Just know that it is not doing much. Ask for the intra-nasal version so that, if you're giving a not very useful vaccine, at least you're not injecting it into your dog's body.

That's my take, anyway. Probably every vet will tell you something different. The above is definitely a science-based approach, whereas repeating the sequence of puppy shots most decidedly is not

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Hi Dr. Steve, thank you for being here for us!  

How can I detox a rabies vax?  It's been a week and it wasn't mercury free.  I do have the items below on hand but not sure if appropriate.  My pup is not having a reaction to the jab but he is on Rimadyl for a possible partial ACL tear, we haven't figured out what's going on with that yet.  He is a little over a year old.  Thanks in advance for any help!

Dr. Steve's Advice - I personally lean on Thuja to safeguard against adverse reactions to rabies vaccines. It seems to work well.

Getting a torn cruciate at just a year old is an alarming turn of events! We've hand MANY posts on cruciate tears. Please read them to get some advice on how to avoid surgery and protect the other ligament as well

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Hi, Dr. Steve. Last night I saw a post that people are seeing sick raccoons within our city limits. It is thought to be distemper. Our dog Brittany hasn’t been vaccinated in years, we’ve just been running titers. The last titer we did for distemper was in September 2021, and our vet said it was iffy and recommended vaccination within the next year. Brittany just turned 10, and I really don’t want to rock the boat with more vaccines. Do you think she’s a risk for getting sick? I haven’t seen any raccoons near our house in years, but there’s plenty of other wildlife around so I’m sure they’re around too and I’m just not seeing them. We just did her 6 month checkup last week, but I didn’t even think to have them run another titer. But when I saw the post I got concerned.

Dr. Steve's Advice - it's your choice how to approach this. The vaccine research conducted over decades by Ron Schultz at the University of Wisconsin established through challenge trials that even a low but measurable titer against distemper and parvo indicated protection - so much so that they did not even show clinical signs. Based on that research, your dogs are fine.

Having said that, the parvo-distemper vaccine (assuming it doesn't have a lot else in it) has a low risk of causing issues in your dog if it did not when given before. The problem with vaccines is the adjuvants they contain. If your policy of titer testing has allowed you to skip vaccinations for years in a row, then a single distemper booster is unlikely to create problems.

In other words, whatever you decide to do, you have scientific support!

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Hello Dr Steve Marsden,

I truly hope you can help me with my little girl. This is Tuli, she is a 5 year old Doxie/Chihuahua mix. She has been having what we refer to as dizzy spells or the wobbles since she was about a year. I strongly believe it was after her last vaccs. She will start pacing and starts to do the liking you see in the video she comes to me for comfort I assume, then she gets like a drunken gate and last she will throw up. Usually this lasts about 3-5 min. The video where she is on her PeePee tray, which she would never normally lay on, was a few days ago and it was different from other episodes. Her breathing was very bad and her heart rate went way down. As you see she was almost non-responsive and lasted about 20 min. I thought we were gonna lose her. She ended up throwing up and having soft stool right after. 

She get these episodes about every three to four weeks. Bloodwork shows all is good as per vet and all they want to do is put her on Phenobarbital or  Keppra. I currently have her on Full Spectrum CBD and C8 MCT oil, they dont seem to be helping. She eats either home cooked, canned sardines, commercial gently cooked or I just started commercial RAW. She itches a lot which is something I am trying to fix with all three of my little ones. Her appetite has been increasing as has her weight which made me wonder about Cushings, but no other symptoms to indicate this. 

Im hoping I have attached everything correctly for your review as well as made it as concise as possible as I truly appreciate your time.

Dr. Steve's Advice - I agree with what your vets seem to be suspecting, which is that Tuli is going through a prolonged pre-ictal phase. In other words, that she is having 'pre-seizure' events, but not actually convulsing.

If that's the case, then it means that, although concerning to you and Tuli, the behaviour is mild enough to possibly resolve using herbal medicines.

A real food diet is generally a good idea in seizures. Rather than you perhaps considering her diet as not working for her, it may be that it is the wholesomeness of the diet preventing things from worsening into full-blown epilepsy. Make sure that the raw you're feeding is not very high in fat and contributing to weight gains. I understand the use of CBD and MCT supplements, but there's a chance the MCT's are aggravating her instead.

One way that a 'keto diet' and MCTs could work against Tuli is if she had a Damp constitution from a Chinese medical perspective. Dampness is signified by an increased tendency to weight gain, nausea (signified by licking) and inflammation. It can also 'cloud the thinking' and interfere with the movement of Qi and Yang into the interior of the body. If this interruption is severe enough, the Yang and Qi rise to produce seizures. Meanwhile, since Dampness is produced by weakened digestive organs in response to a diet that is too rich, loose stools can result.

You can see this description fits Tuli reasonably well. If you want to try treating her for it (instead of going for the anticonvulsant drugs, which won't cure her, but will only mask the symptoms), then I'd suggest finding Kan Essentials Subdue Internal Wind, either on Amazon or through someone like Diana Hermann, per her instructions in Featured posts above. Follow the dosing guidelines located at https://nphc.ca/using/dosage. You'll need to use it for at least a couple of months to know if it's reducing her seizure propensity, if this is a monthly issue

The only thing that gives me pause is her high platelet count. This is sometimes associated with another cause of seizures, Shao Yang disharmony. If that were the issue, then you'd be looking at trying Halscion from Gold Standard Herbs. Symptoms include nausea/licking, seizure tendencies, pacing, headaches, and a disrupted microbiome, which can produce itching. You can see it's a pretty good fit, too

A final candidate that is safe to try in just about any suspected seizure case is Kan Essentials Calm Repose.

This may be a situation of trial and error, where you give one formula a shot, and if in a month the behaviour recurs, you try the next one. It may take several months to figure out what's going on and land on a successful treatment.

One thing that will reduce the trial and error is the timing of the activities. The more it happens in the mornings, the more you'd use Subdue Internal Wind. The more it happens in the night or in the wee hours, the more you'd use Halscion. Calm Repose dogs are more apt to seizure in the afternoons and earlier in the evening

Hope this helps you out!

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Good morning Dr. Steve

My little dog Mitchie has been vaccinated against rabies mid July and needs to be tested for Cushing disease.
The vet told us to bring a sample of his morning urine.

I wanted to ask you at what point will the results not be affected by the vaccination he received?
The doctor seems to only be concerned about the stress he felt when he was at the clinic and seems to think the vaccination will not skew the results…
I’d love to hear your input, please 

Dr. Steve's Advice -  I'm not sure what the purpose of the urine test is. We normally diagnose Cushing's using a blood test. To diagnose it with a urine test, they normally need to collect urine for 24 hours. Too much cortisol excreted during that time means a patient has Cushing's. As long as he is not too stressed during the test, then his urine cortisol levels should not exceed that threshold 

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So just to clarify vaccines I also brought home a new boy Dec and am waiting until 12 weeks to give first vaccine.  That seem appropriate? 

Dr. Steve's Advice -   I guess if you can keep your pup away from other dogs until then it might be okay. Vaccinating at 8 and 12 weeks, with a titer test after 14 weeks was my standard approach to vaccinating against distemper and parvo 

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Good afternoon, Dr. Steve Marsden I just adopted a young mixed breed female, that weighs 25 lbs..  Her blood work is perfect.  She is healthy and I have started her on a real food diet.  I am currently giving her Cessorex by Gold Standard Herbs due to some scratching and biting her feet, as I understand this should help her microbiome and improve her skin condition.  I live in an area that is a mosquito paradise, so I have to give heartworm prevention all year.  What do you suggest for a monthly detox as well as a detox that will work well when it is time for vaccines, including rabies.  Thank you. 

Dr. Steve's Advice -  the great thing about Cessorex is that it optimizes liver and kidney function (the detox organs) and also calms the immune system to help prevent aberrant reactions to stimulants like vaccines. So you may not need to do anything more than you are now, if you haven't been seeing problems.

Remember to titer test before vaccinating, to see what your dog really needs. We've talked about that a lot on this page. And remember Thuja (also discussed a lot) for helping minimize the chances of adverse events from any vaccines that are used.

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